Dunbarrow (Sky_xHf_Db) [Reserved: roerich]

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roerich
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Dunbarrow (Sky_xHf_Db) [Reserved: roerich]

Post by roerich » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:58 am

Edit: remade this into the claim thread. -roerich

[spoiler2]Inspired by this:
worsas wrote:An excerpt from today irc:
(23:11:20) Worsas: Would anybody mind, if I made the stone houses (com house retexes) T_Imp_SetSky_ in the new data?
(23:16:58) Glisp hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Connection closed).
(23:18:06) Scamp: hi
(23:18:27) Scamp: if using X-Chat 2 / Hexchat there should be an option actually
(23:18:39) Luxray: i think that would be fine muspila
(23:19:46) Worsas: one good thing about it that we could keep dunbarrow and the nearby mining site as it is without having to nordify it or adapting it to the house-style of Haafingar
(23:20:09) Worsas: if we say that these are imperial fiefs, which would make quite some sense
(23:20:23) Worsas: not sure, but i think lestat was adding a silver mine there
(23:20:51) Worsas: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/223 ... mining.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(23:21:38) Worsas: +it would add imperial holdings that king thian could have annexed in the first place
(23:21:58) Worsas: in case anyone remembers the 3rd pg
Starting the Dunbarrow discussion in a seperate thread. Earlier I had mixed feelings about this town, but I think we can keep it. A mining town owned by an Imperial noble since the War of the Red Diamond, but since annexed by Thian. A mixture between Nordic and Imperial architecture.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/gnuXVM9.jpg[/hsimg]

Some changes I'd suggest:

- Remove about 3/4 of the houses (right now the town covers 4 cells and 41 interiors - a bit smaller than Markarth!) A suitable number would be 10-15 houses and the mine.
- Make the town layout a bit more organic, even if it's Imperial-inspired architecture.
- Use fort walls externally and the stone walls internally.
- Make some clearings around the town, so it's not just weirdly appearing in the middle of the forest with pines appearing right next to the stone walls.
- Add some more rocks and cliffranges around the town (see map), if possible have a higher elevation, so the town is located on a plateau encircled on the northern side by rocks and SW by the unnamed mountain.
- Add a small stream from the aforementioned cliffs, making its way down the rocks and through the forest into the Karth. I was thinking the miners could use our watermill model here.

Quick map with some of my thoughts illustrated:

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/EjrnfDI.jpg[/hsimg][/spoiler2]

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Post by Scamp » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:47 pm

The biggest issue with this town is the layout. Every corner looks the same. Players usually need some sorts of guiding points that they'll easily recognize. This is possible even without additional elevation, although usually that greatly helps, but we shouldn't use it here. The overall shape needs to be more irregular. To me, Imperial-inspired architecture, as you call it, doesn't imply such a grid layout, so I agree with this point.

We could add a clearing or two in close proximity with treestumps and such, although I do not think it makes a lot of sense. The inhabitants would've extended the clearing where the town is located instead of moving away from it just to start another clearing elsewhere, so this is what we should do, more free space around the town.

Not sure about adding so many cliffs here. It might look better overall, but I remember working on these forests for my mountain claim. Filling just one cell of that is a lot more work even than it looks. Let's just say I'm quite uncomfortable seeing that going to waste.

Btw, adding the stream is a good call, as it will add a reason for the town to be in this particular location, which is rather missing right now.

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Post by roerich » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:21 pm

Scamp wrote: We could add a clearing or two in close proximity with treestumps and such, although I do not think it makes a lot of sense. The inhabitants would've extended the clearing where the town is located instead of moving away from it just to start another clearing elsewhere, so this is what we should do, more free space around the town.
I think you misunderstood me, what I meant was exactly what you're proposing.
Scamp wrote:Not sure about adding so many cliffs here. It might look better overall, but I remember working on these forests for my mountain claim. Filling just one cell of that is a lot more work even than it looks. Let's just say I'm quite uncomfortable seeing that going to waste.
I agree with seeing some forest work go to waste, but my idea was to have a rocky area north of the two mountains, starting along the to-be-deleted part of the river with some rocks going into the forest but mostly expanding westwards.

Edit: Tried my hands on a more irregular layout:

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/nXg3Syo.png[/hsimg]

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Post by worsas » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:33 pm

Everything here sounds great. If we'll have any more of these imperial steads in future, we could consider adding 1 or 2 of the colony buildings aswell. They also have this sturdy cozy feeling about them.
The biggest issue with this town is the layout. Every corner looks the same. Players usually need some sorts of guiding points that they'll easily recognize. This is possible even without additional elevation, although usually that greatly helps, but we shouldn't use it here. The overall shape needs to be more irregular. To me, Imperial-inspired architecture, as you call it, doesn't imply such a grid layout, so I agree with this point.
Somehow I have always liked this weird, overly rectangular layout of this town (maybe the Arena-flair about it, really). Also, been loving the market in it. Though, the town itself has always been too large and too populated.
I could imagine a rectangular (or otherwise very regularly constructed) layout being suitable, if you want to present a settlement as one that has been planned and established as a modern settlement by the Empire with a predefined purpose and size, opposed to one that has naturally grown over time. I think it would be a mistake to disregard the potential of a rectangular layout, on principle.

I don't mind getting lost in towns myself. Makes it a bit more interesting to me, if I don't instantly know where everything is. Searching and discovering things is one of the greatest experiences this game can offer.

However, apart from these minor points, I agree about everything said so far. I also like that wip-screen very much.

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Post by berry » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:33 pm

Seconded, I'm happy with all these suggestions, though really, all the changes to finished areas should be minimal.
worsas wrote:Somehow I have always liked this weird, overly rectangular layout of this town (maybe the Arena-flair about it, really). Also, been loving the market in it.
It had this oldschool feel to it, I agree. :) It felt extremely cozy, too. I couldn't stop myself from humming this track from Might and Magic VI, my theme for winter since I was a kid, when I was there. :P

Regarding the stream and the wheel: how about making here a water forge? On a New Year I partook a forging demonstration in a 4 centuries old water forge in Oliwa, Gdańsk (in bloody -15 Celsuses, none the less, so the technology should be fine in harsh Skyrim too :D) and it was a sight to see. Basically there's a giant hammer on a giant beam, powered by a waterwheel (quite giant, of course), next to a giant fireplace:
[hsimg=]http://www.solidarnosc.gda.pl/wp-conten ... -wodna.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://www.factorytravel.pl/media/facto ... b68802.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://bywajtu.pl/media/dynamic/picture ... 0x2000.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://www.gdanskstrefa.com/wp-content/ ... 6472_n.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://pomorskie.travel/uploads/mm/obra ... z_2683.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://pomorskie.travel/uploads/mm/obra ... z_2684.jpg[/hsimg] Considering how this was a Imperial fief, maybe the owner employed some smartass Nibanese craftsmen to make here a wooden aqueduct, powering the forge with mountain streams? [hsimg=]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 160435.jpg[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://4everstatic.com/pictures/674xX/b ... 173479.jpg[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MKsta1kWtk8/U ... educt2.jpg[/hsimg] [hsimg=]http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/e01d83236f934 ... b5btkn.jpg[/hsimg] With all these facilites built just next to the mine it's not a wonder the fief was a tasty morsel for Thian.

The obvious problem I see with these ideas is how they would likely require eradicating some fine finished exterior content. :| So maybe we should rather save this idea for later, then?
Edit: unless we make the aqueducts lead long way back to the née-Karth areas, where the mountains would be in this case, trying to keep Scamp's forests as virgin as possible? That would in fact minimalize the destruction, then.

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Post by roerich » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:09 pm

A water forge sounds interesting. The cliffs I'm proposing would of course remove some of the forest, but only a drop in the wooden ocean really. I want to see if it's possible to make a ridge or something like that with minimal work on the forest cells.

An update on my work.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/HXlXDS0.jpg[/hsimg]

- The current iteration contains 13 interiors, excluding the mine. I think this is a suitable number.
- Added a mine entrance to the town itself, rather than having a satellite settlement.
- The compound in the NW corner contains a manor for the (former) Imperial noble that owned the fief and mine, as well a tradehouse and stables.

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Post by Scamp » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:22 am

The issue I have with the rectangular layout is that it doesn't work well in video games from my point of view. It's the reason why running around Vivec is mostly terribly boring, while exploring Balmora or any Telvanni establishment was pretty cool. I can see you guys like it mostly for nostalgic reasons, which is fine. In case of what Morrowind did with town layouts, I do believe there's more at play than just nostalgia when I say they worked really, really well in their context with few exceptions.

But really, if there's enough people comfortable with the current layout I don't see a reason to completely rearrange it. (Although I quite like roerich's mockups here)

roerich, can you give us an overview of that so that we can see the cliff within the whole environment?

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Post by worsas » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:57 am

But really, if there's enough people comfortable with the current layout I don't see a reason to completely rearrange it. (Although I quite like roerich's mockups here)
Scamp, you are on the wrong dampfer. We'll go with Roerichs mockup, anyway. Just been discussing on a purely theoretical level.

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Post by roerich » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:05 am

roerich, can you give us an overview of that so that we can see the cliff within the whole environment?
I changed my plans since then, I will just make a smaller set of rocks extending from the "mine cliff", encircling the northern half of the city.

Like this:
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/DwdNNyo.png[/hsimg]

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Post by roerich » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:59 am

berry wrote: Considering how this was a Imperial fief, maybe the owner employed some smartass Nibanese craftsmen to make here a wooden aqueduct, powering the forge with mountain streams?
I'm on it :P
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/owgHh9g.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/dunxlun.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/bEBSGlT.jpg[/hsimg]

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Post by berry » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:12 pm

roerich wrote: [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/PihXuC9.jpg[/hsimg]
Duuude. I'm in love. :D

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Post by roerich » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:35 pm

Thanks. I edited my post with some better screens. I plan to make part of the stream going south go underground, so we don't have to make that many adjustments to the forest.

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Post by Ted » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:54 pm

This town now in my top 10 list of places where I want to live in Tamriel.

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Post by roerich » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:02 pm

That is high praise, I hope we can add an abandoned house for your character to move into. :D

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Post by Luxray » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:26 pm

Now that's a nice layout for a small town. Plus, no huge deal to interiorise. :thumbsup:
<roerich> woah it's hot in here
<Lord Berandas> it must be Summer.
<Infragris> #hell is meant as a spam and off topic channel. Doing a great job already

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Post by Scamp » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:46 pm

Reminds me of Dagon Fel for some reason and still has its very own vibe. Nice!

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Post by spineinside » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:52 pm

Dunbarrow is beautiful !!! lovely to see this house set used
Ted wrote:This town now in my top 10 list of places where I want to live in Tamriel.
and this ;)

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Post by Yeti » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:25 pm

Nice work on this, guys. I love coming back to the forum and discovering a neat project has sprouted up while I was gone.

If only that happened more often at Tamriel Rebuilt these days...

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Post by arrianas » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:14 am

I'm in love with this little town. Maybe you could make a small quest, or add a character looking to sell a house here?

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Post by worsas » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:15 am

As a sidenote: Lestat made a number of somewhat finished interiors for Dunbarrow when he was working on it in the past. We should look about recycling those as much as possible.

Regarding the other mine location nearby. I don't think it would be a problem to keep both of them.

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Post by roerich » Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:25 am

Glad to see the good reception this has gotten! I will continue with this layout then.

@worsas Yes, I have checked out those. They would need an update with some of our new resources, but there's a lot of things that can be reused as well.

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Post by roerich » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:09 pm

Dunbarrow Overview

Let me know what you think, everything is up for discussion. Some of the commoner homes can be exchanged for more RPG-esque characters, that could still work around the town without being completely generic commoners.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/KlnvKmS.png[/hsimg]

1. The manor of the residing Thane (a vassal of King Thian), formerly the home of an Imperial noble. The barracks of the Thane's personal guard are located in the basement, along with a small jail.
2. Servant, kitchen and storage area of the manor.
3. Dunbarrow Tradehouse, functioning as a tradehouse and the local tavern for the thirsty and frozen miners. A room can be rented here by the player.
4. Manor stables. Can be used by mounted travellers passing by, in return for a small sum.
5. Commoner home. The individual living here works around the town, primarily in the stables and with tending and repairing the water mill.
6. Home of the miller. Possibly a smith?
7. The water mill. Possibly being used as a water forge, as berry suggested.
8. Commoner home. A couple lives here, with the husband working in the mine.
9. Nord Hunter hunting in the forest, bringing home meat and fur for the village.
10. Commoner home.
11. Miner home.
12. Colovian Warrior home. A retired mercenary and former guard lives here. He used to work as captain for the small garrison protecting the city, but the new Thane has brought his own guards with him and displaced him. The former captain has succumbed to heavy drinking and a bitter hate of everything cold and Nordic, but he's too old and poor to travel back to Cyrodiil. (If the player helps him out, he can take over the house as a player home - if approved by the Thane, that is)
13. Imperial priest of Arkay and healer.
14. Miner home.
15. Miner home.
16. General goods trader. Has a rather small selection, but makes a living on importing goods from Haafingar and Markarth and selling them to the inhabitants of the city as well as passing travellers.
17. Mining office and storage for mined silver ore. Also functions as guard station for the guards watching over the storage and the mine entrance.
18. Dunbarrow silver mine.

Ingame screenshots (please ignore the MGE oddities) [hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Jf2d4Cy.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/VGMPp4l.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/4ClY7WI.jpg[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/kx1IDd1.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/6zymXzF.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/uLRnr4J.jpg[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/TqPPD0a.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/FsXerW8.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/fZ3d2On.jpg[/hsimg]
[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/XCtNeow.jpg[/hsimg][hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/Ham3pWn.jpg[/hsimg]

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Post by Yeti » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:20 am

There's nothing wrong with having generic commoners. Most NPCs should be generic. Characters with actual personalities should be special and unique, not commonplace, after all. Besides that, writing dialogue for a town LGNPC-style is something you do not want to do if preserving your sanity as a modder ranks high as a priority. I can speak from experience on that!

But enough of my ramblings. Great interior list, roerich. It looks like a fun place for an NPC modder to populate.

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Post by roerich » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:39 am

Indeed, I was just afraid the number of generic commoners would be a bit high here. :-D But you're completely right.

And thanks.

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Post by roerich » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:25 am

I'm working on a barrow overlooking the city, on the slopes of Mt. Draukar.

[hsimg=]http://i.imgur.com/mvwCOQc.jpg[/hsimg]

I'd like to swap one of the commoners for a priest of Arkay. He or she decided to stay in the village, even after the Imperial noble was exiled, in order to ward the inhabitants against the profane undead that lurk in the ruins nearby.

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Post by spineinside » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:25 pm

all i see about Dunbarrow village makes me wanna travel through it so badly, this will be one of my favorite places in SHotN. I hope we will be able to explore it shortly.

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Post by Yeti » Tue May 10, 2016 5:56 am

Would it be possible to post a file here, roerich, just so we have your work on the village backed up on the forums?

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Post by roerich » Thu May 12, 2016 10:42 am

Sure, I'll cut out the claim in TESAME first. Currently I'm just working off the exterior file.

Another thing:

I'm thinking about removing the water mill, saving it for a future settlement. It just looks really fake with everything snowy and icy, and then there's this small stream that's not frozen over. I'm also having a hard time properly fitting it into the surrounding landscape. What do you think?

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Post by roerich » Thu May 12, 2016 1:00 pm

All right, here it is - the first update.
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Sky_Ext_Claim_Dunbarrow_01_v01.esp
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 68 times

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Post by roerich » Thu May 12, 2016 6:41 pm

And a go at a version with the watermill cut:
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Sky_Ext_Claim_Dunbarrow_v2.esp
(1.49 MiB) Downloaded 48 times

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