This was inspired by some points that Ph.D. in Sorcery brought up on the Discord.
I think we should change the Reach's government from monarchy to moot, as laid out in PGE1. The changes to Sky_Main and T_D wouldn't be significant at all. Benefits of this approach:
- Attempts to follow PGE1 more closely to introduce more cultural and political differences between the Holds. "Old vs. New" should be a theme in SHOTN. The Old Holds will still have hereditary leaders
- Moves the focus away from a large, Hold-wide governing faction (Kingdom of the Reach) with effectively no peers in favor of a number of smaller, more equal intra-Hold factions; this better resembles vanilla's faction relationships and story-telling and...
- Gives player the chance to join different factions rather than one faction with different paths. A single faction won't be as much of an issue in the Old Holds since they can be designed independently of existing content/politics-rich storylines like the Reach and won't necessarily require different paths
- Opens up opportunities to develop/highlight minor factions within reasonable scope
- Reduces mechanical and story-telling clunkiness when it comes to interplay within and between factions like the Kingdom of the Reach and the Fire-Hand Clan
- Allows player to become faction leader, something that wouldn't have likely worked in previous proposals
Guiding Considerations:
- Include PGE3 events, where possible, on top of PGE1 + Shadowkey foundation
- Retain the notable Reach NPCs and conflicts (War of Bend'r-Mahk, DSW/DSE, Barda's clan vs. Jona's clan)
- Further develop the Bear Clan as a unique faction with a shady background as noted in ingame texts
- Refine the scope of the previous Reach MQ proposals to something smaller and more manageable
- Keep a solid number of quests (around 24 to 30) even after nixing the Oringar path of previous proposals
Background of the Moot & State of the Reach:
The moot meets every so often to determine local laws and settle disputes. Members of the moot include notable clans and landowners throughout the Reach, with one member elected by the moot to preside as "lawspeaker" aka the liaison between the Reach and the King of Skyrim. Members of the moot are elected within their clans/holdings and keep their positions for life or until they lose whatever qualification earned them membership. At present, there are three "influential" factions in the moot: "Barda's Clan" (name tbd, joinable), the Fire-Hand Clan (joinable), and the Bear Clan (not joinable).
Barda's Clan is one of the oldest and most powerful in the Reach; their holdings include Markarth Side, Beorinhal, and--following the War of Bend'r-Mahk--Karthwasten. They represent the old clans of the Reach and the status quo. The Fire-Hands, a young clan which traveled to the Reach when war broke out, carved a devastating campaign through the Druadach Highlands which culminated in the capture of the eastern half of Dragonstar. They were awarded two positions on the moot for the land they seized and they likely would have more had they left some villages intact. The Fire-Hand Clan speaks for the "new" clans and landowners of the Reach following the War. The Bear Clan, another clan new to the Reach, is fiercely independent and rarely follows one faction or the other.
Notable members of the moot whose holdings include settlements:
- Barda the Builder (Barda's Clan) - Lawspeaker
- Fomir the Voiceful (Barda's Clan)
- Horir the Grey (Barda's Clan)
- Jona the Ansei-Ender (Fire-Hand Clan)
- Farkon Fire-Hand (Fire-Hand Clan)
- Uolgo Bear-Father (Bear Clan)
The other "minor" factions follow the notable members' leads. These members don't need any more depth than some unique dialogue here and there. Examples could include:
- Boar-Snout
- Dragon-Heart
- Gilded-Shield
- Ice-Moon
- Iron-Bone
- Silver-Blood
- Winter-Sun
- Solveig (Fenbru)
- Bathild (estate-holder)
- Rivand (estate-holder)
- etc.
Barda has served as an effective lawspeaker for decades, but the Reach has fallen on hard times. Sogat dur-Gada activity has increased, banditry has exploded, and tensions have only worsened between Dragonstar East and West. Meanwhile, men and gold are given to the Empire both locally and abroad with seemingly no relief in return. Barda's Clan sees DS as a millstone around the Reach's neck; if that conflict could be resolved through diplomacy or gold, then more resources will be available to tackle other issues such as banditry. The Fire-Hand Clan (read: Jona) harbors unsettled grudges from the War and views DSW as an unfinished fight. If DSW can fall under the Reach's control, then the border with Hammerfell will be tightly regulated, the SGD destroyed, and the Reach pacified under stronger, more centralized governance. Both factions blame the Empire for doing too little while taking too much.
Barda is ill and his death will open up both a spot on the moot for the holding of Markarth Side and the position of lawspeaker. Barda's aimless son, Alrod (moved to the college in Markarth Side), is assumed to be the replacement member. If Barda's Clan has the votes, then the next lawspeaker will be Fomir (Horir is too risky) who could be changed to be Barda's oldest son. If the Fire-Hand Clan has the votes, then Jona will be lawspeaker. Uolgo and Horir will need to be actively persuaded to vote one way; the minor members will vote based on actions taken during the MQ.
Faction Questlines and the MQ:
After having joined either Barda's Clan or the Fire-Hand Clan and risen through the ranks (early quests tbd), the player will be rewarded with an estate, either Fenrald's Bend (Barda's Clan) or a rebuilt Hoarbeld (Fire-Hand Clan). After another rank advancement or two, Barda dies. The player will then be tasked with securing the votes of the two influential, non-committed members of the moot to give their faction a majority of the votes. Converting the Bear Clan involves either doing quests for them or destroying some of their hideouts in the Reach. The player will have to solve Horir's Reachman problem to gain his vote. Finally, the player must complete various Dragonstar quests for their faction to convert some minor clans and secure more than a simple majority of votes to put down any possibility of strife within the moot. Barda's Clan might have the player organize with the Crowns or RHC for a more effective peace through mutual concessions or set the stage for an eventual relinquishment of DSE. The Fire-Hand Clan could have the player destroy the SGD cell in DSW, organize marauder attacks on the Tro-Tuktura Pass, etc.
The members of the moot are then temporarily PositionCell'd to Tsunholm, where the votes for lawspeaker are tallied. The player discovers that the opposing leader has issued a traditional challenge for a champions' duel to the death. As their faction's champion, the player faces either Barda Clan's champion if they're a member of the Fire-Hand Clan, or Jona herself if a member of Barda's Clan. The player kills their opponent and the votes are tallied. As expected, the player's faction has a convincing majority. Following the election of the player's faction leader to lawspeaker, the player becomes the new faction leader and joins the moot as a notable landowner of an estate. If Jona is killed, one of her DSE lieutenants replaces her as a member of the moot. The moot adjourns and the members return to their respective cells.
TL;DR:
- Join one of the two factions (early quests tbd)
- Build estate at rank 5-ish
- Convince Bear Clan
- Convince Horir
- Climax: Accomplish faction's DS goals and weaken other faction
- Attend special meeting of the moot and champions' duel on Tsunholm
- Become faction leader
Necessary Changes:
- T_Sky_KingdomReach faction removed, T_Sky_BardaClan (name tbd) faction added, relevant NPCs revised accordingly
- Standard Reach guards replaced with Barda's Clan, Fire-Hand Clan, and Bear Clan variants in appropriate settlements to reflect local factions. Barda's Clan and Fire-Hand Clan can be simple variations of the current guards' armor, while the Bear Clan guards could use ringmail and bear armor
- Gorvrda and her quests slightly modified to make her a member of the Bear Clan
- Minor changes to Red Palace, Elfstone Keep, and Granite Hall; local "rulers" such as Fomir, Barda, and Horir still occupy them. Think Bear Clan in Karthgad, but with more flair. Reach (Barda), Fire-Hand Clan, and Bear Clan flags can all be reused
- References in books and dialogue to current monarchy
Notes:
- PGE1 notes that the Reach is the most cosmopolitan hold in Skyrim. We can assume that there are some non-Nord minor members on the moot who are "old money" or earned land during the War
- I don't think either faction is in any position to change ownership of DSW/DSE during the MQ. It'd draw the attention/ire of the rest of the moot, the King of Skyrim, and the Empire. Mechanically, Morrowind doesn't do very well in this department, anyway; it relies more on "suggest, don't show". The player should be able to do just enough for gameplay, story-telling, and the feeling that changes are coming (ex: Temple & Dissident Priests post-vanilla MQ)
Reach MQ and Moot Proposal
I want to give this a proper response here, without the feeling of dogpiling than can come from Discord. I disagree with the idea, but it's very impressive in its scope and iconoclastic boldness. I like that.
I was struck during that Discord disagreement how all of the conflict seemed to emerge from interpretation and the weight certain passages were given over others. Someone would have dead certainty about something that looked like pure conjecture to me. Point is, I think there are ways to massage the meaning of PGE passages to fit what we have already, rather than burning it and starting again.
Firstly, regardless of other actions, I don't think we should break the Reach faction up. If nothing else, that's antithetical to how TESIII handles factions. I understand (I think) that this is imagining the Reach like the whole of vanilla MW and that therefore there shouldn't be a single super-faction spanning the whole release, but I don't see it like that and I think other people don't either. The Reach will be like a vanilla-and-TR Great House territory, and therefore governed by a single polity. But coming back to how TESIII handles factions, it's mechanically explicit about supra-factions and implicit about sub-factions (Great House politicking, corrupt FG elements). Demolishing the Reach faction and instead implying it through different clans conflicts with that pretty strongly. Even if we implemented all the other changes here, I think we should keep it within a single Reach faction.
Secondly, I don't think the changes will be as minor here as implied. There's a lot of backstory based on the relationships between a strong king and their unruly vassals, and that's reflected throughout the world as it already exists. Characters and dialogue, buildings and interiors, that's a framework that's extremely baked into what we've spent a decade or more building towards. I also feel, on a personal level, that pivoting away from those years of collaborative design at this stage is extremely demoralising. Really pulls the rug out from a lot of hard work.
Regarding the conflict between the PGE and SHOTN in terms of moots and Old/New holds: as I said at the start, I think this can be massaged. I would actually be pretty strongly in favour of raising the importance of a Moot in the Reach, but in a fashion that does not conflict with the majority of what's already been planned. Not dissimilar to what you proposed in "Background of the Moot" but with a king elected for life (and eschewing the explicit relationship with a "King of Skyrim"). A loose and Nordic version of a parliamentary monarchy or an HRE with a strong and influential Diet. Thanes and clan heads meet at Elfstone Keep periodically (it already has a council chamber and the hall is filled with petitioners of various interest groups), and when the king dies they convene to elect a new one from amongst their number. This, to me, would absolutely satisfy the PGE line "[the New Holds] have long been governed (after a fashion) by elected moots", especially since that is said in contrast to the idea of hereditary monarchies.
I agree with your list of Moot members (maaaybe not the Bear Clan? Or demote them from landholders? I think the Karthgad political situation is interesting as is). I also am perfectly happy for Dragonstar to not change hands at the end of its questline - when I wrote my first treatment for a DSMQ I included it but was persuaded against it at the time.
I was struck during that Discord disagreement how all of the conflict seemed to emerge from interpretation and the weight certain passages were given over others. Someone would have dead certainty about something that looked like pure conjecture to me. Point is, I think there are ways to massage the meaning of PGE passages to fit what we have already, rather than burning it and starting again.
Firstly, regardless of other actions, I don't think we should break the Reach faction up. If nothing else, that's antithetical to how TESIII handles factions. I understand (I think) that this is imagining the Reach like the whole of vanilla MW and that therefore there shouldn't be a single super-faction spanning the whole release, but I don't see it like that and I think other people don't either. The Reach will be like a vanilla-and-TR Great House territory, and therefore governed by a single polity. But coming back to how TESIII handles factions, it's mechanically explicit about supra-factions and implicit about sub-factions (Great House politicking, corrupt FG elements). Demolishing the Reach faction and instead implying it through different clans conflicts with that pretty strongly. Even if we implemented all the other changes here, I think we should keep it within a single Reach faction.
Secondly, I don't think the changes will be as minor here as implied. There's a lot of backstory based on the relationships between a strong king and their unruly vassals, and that's reflected throughout the world as it already exists. Characters and dialogue, buildings and interiors, that's a framework that's extremely baked into what we've spent a decade or more building towards. I also feel, on a personal level, that pivoting away from those years of collaborative design at this stage is extremely demoralising. Really pulls the rug out from a lot of hard work.
Regarding the conflict between the PGE and SHOTN in terms of moots and Old/New holds: as I said at the start, I think this can be massaged. I would actually be pretty strongly in favour of raising the importance of a Moot in the Reach, but in a fashion that does not conflict with the majority of what's already been planned. Not dissimilar to what you proposed in "Background of the Moot" but with a king elected for life (and eschewing the explicit relationship with a "King of Skyrim"). A loose and Nordic version of a parliamentary monarchy or an HRE with a strong and influential Diet. Thanes and clan heads meet at Elfstone Keep periodically (it already has a council chamber and the hall is filled with petitioners of various interest groups), and when the king dies they convene to elect a new one from amongst their number. This, to me, would absolutely satisfy the PGE line "[the New Holds] have long been governed (after a fashion) by elected moots", especially since that is said in contrast to the idea of hereditary monarchies.
I agree with your list of Moot members (maaaybe not the Bear Clan? Or demote them from landholders? I think the Karthgad political situation is interesting as is). I also am perfectly happy for Dragonstar to not change hands at the end of its questline - when I wrote my first treatment for a DSMQ I included it but was persuaded against it at the time.